Thank you, Mark. As for this one evangelical Reformed church pastor, I have -- as have all pastors -- been deeply bonded by pastoral care and very personal concern into the suffering of not a few most committed followers of Christ. The travails of analytical reasoning and existential experience into the depth of human suffering (sometimes beyond all imagination) yields only hopelessness or even despair, however much we cover it with positive religion and practical wisdom. That is, until we lift our eyes away from ourselves to the innocent, incarnate (!) Son of God nailed to a cross on Calvary hill -- for us! There we may catch something absolutely decisive -- from the revelation of Holy Scriptures, the Word of God -- not only of the unthinkable cost paid for "what's wrong with this world" but for what is horribly and utterly corrupt and vicious in my heart, too (evident in every cause of suffering, whether the cause is from each of us or from some other source of our Fallen world). There, the Person of the Son of God as well as the Person of God the Father and the Person of the Holy Spirit of God -- inseparable in the very union and oneness of the being of God -- tell us of God's utterly amazing yet so personal love, at that chosen time and place. For God so loved the world of people and of all His cosmic creation that in that freely giving of His eternally begotten Son He has given a new quality of life, of joy and of freedom even through deep valleys of suffering. Been there. Seen that.
Again....really good stuff! I have something to consider. I think I believe that participating in judging what is right and what is wrong is killing us, on many levels, intellectual, emotional, and physical. Nothing is either right or wrong....it just is what it is! With that in mind, if you agree that what is, is, then the Scripture "All things work together for good" means that, one way or another, all things are for good! The mental pain we feel is not from what is happening, but from the difference between OUR judgement of things and God's judgement of things. BOTH judgements are taking place within us, since both we and God inhabit these temples. IF we can get our "selfs" to defer to God's opinion about everything, we will fall into harmony with His thoughts, which are, after all, fashioned from a brilliance way beyond our pay grade. When God says that "ALL things are working together for our good," probably He means exactly what He is saying. Almost no Christians, or anyone else, believes this! No wonder we have such little joy:). God lives in total joy and we just won't join Him, because we think we know better than He does about such matters......so we will continue to divid everything and everyone into either good or evil. How has that been working for you? I am tired of it. I AM trying to defer to God's opinions now, though it is a challenge:). Wish me well!
<<When God says that "ALL things are working together for our good," probably He means exactly what He is saying. Almost no Christians, or anyone else, believes this! >>. Indeed! Including me....
In 1971, my 1965 GTO, the one with the three carborators, was stolen. I was so out-raged I would have probably tried to really hurt the thieves! Later, much later, I realized God decided to let that happen….because of me! I was in love with my car more than I was in love with my new wife! I really think I was! Well, the car has been gone for a long time, but my lovely Marian is still with me, now for 52 years. I think God made a good decision! “All things, ALL things work…Work….together for my good.” Only God could be so brilliant that He could turn all things for good. It is really too much to believe….so very few do….very, very few…perhaps not even you:). That tree of knowledge of good and evil is killing us! We were warned to stay away from it, but it is the way we roll, until the wheels fall off our 1965 GTO:).
Thanks for coming back early, Mark. No matter how often, I find your insights helpful, challenging, troubling... something I need. Your musings this time brought to mind something I'll misquote here:"Jesus didn't go to the cross as a substitute, He went as an example to show us how to."
This is my first time that I have sampled some of the material through this dialogue and I am intrigued. V33 “… in the cosmos you have suffering; but take heart - I have conquered the cosmos”
This statement along with what is further said as recorded in John 17 has big implications for me.
Why would the one who according to the same author earlier declare that the one who was present with God in the origin and all things came to be through him, and without him came to be not a single thing that has come to be… this one needed to conquer the very thing he brought about? I see that perhaps the Jesus we have been introduced to has more about him that we are not seeing? I do see more than what has been given to me through my tradition as a Christian.
Thank you, Mark. As for this one evangelical Reformed church pastor, I have -- as have all pastors -- been deeply bonded by pastoral care and very personal concern into the suffering of not a few most committed followers of Christ. The travails of analytical reasoning and existential experience into the depth of human suffering (sometimes beyond all imagination) yields only hopelessness or even despair, however much we cover it with positive religion and practical wisdom. That is, until we lift our eyes away from ourselves to the innocent, incarnate (!) Son of God nailed to a cross on Calvary hill -- for us! There we may catch something absolutely decisive -- from the revelation of Holy Scriptures, the Word of God -- not only of the unthinkable cost paid for "what's wrong with this world" but for what is horribly and utterly corrupt and vicious in my heart, too (evident in every cause of suffering, whether the cause is from each of us or from some other source of our Fallen world). There, the Person of the Son of God as well as the Person of God the Father and the Person of the Holy Spirit of God -- inseparable in the very union and oneness of the being of God -- tell us of God's utterly amazing yet so personal love, at that chosen time and place. For God so loved the world of people and of all His cosmic creation that in that freely giving of His eternally begotten Son He has given a new quality of life, of joy and of freedom even through deep valleys of suffering. Been there. Seen that.
Again....really good stuff! I have something to consider. I think I believe that participating in judging what is right and what is wrong is killing us, on many levels, intellectual, emotional, and physical. Nothing is either right or wrong....it just is what it is! With that in mind, if you agree that what is, is, then the Scripture "All things work together for good" means that, one way or another, all things are for good! The mental pain we feel is not from what is happening, but from the difference between OUR judgement of things and God's judgement of things. BOTH judgements are taking place within us, since both we and God inhabit these temples. IF we can get our "selfs" to defer to God's opinion about everything, we will fall into harmony with His thoughts, which are, after all, fashioned from a brilliance way beyond our pay grade. When God says that "ALL things are working together for our good," probably He means exactly what He is saying. Almost no Christians, or anyone else, believes this! No wonder we have such little joy:). God lives in total joy and we just won't join Him, because we think we know better than He does about such matters......so we will continue to divid everything and everyone into either good or evil. How has that been working for you? I am tired of it. I AM trying to defer to God's opinions now, though it is a challenge:). Wish me well!
<<When God says that "ALL things are working together for our good," probably He means exactly what He is saying. Almost no Christians, or anyone else, believes this! >>. Indeed! Including me....
In 1971, my 1965 GTO, the one with the three carborators, was stolen. I was so out-raged I would have probably tried to really hurt the thieves! Later, much later, I realized God decided to let that happen….because of me! I was in love with my car more than I was in love with my new wife! I really think I was! Well, the car has been gone for a long time, but my lovely Marian is still with me, now for 52 years. I think God made a good decision! “All things, ALL things work…Work….together for my good.” Only God could be so brilliant that He could turn all things for good. It is really too much to believe….so very few do….very, very few…perhaps not even you:). That tree of knowledge of good and evil is killing us! We were warned to stay away from it, but it is the way we roll, until the wheels fall off our 1965 GTO:).
:-)
Thanks for coming back early, Mark. No matter how often, I find your insights helpful, challenging, troubling... something I need. Your musings this time brought to mind something I'll misquote here:"Jesus didn't go to the cross as a substitute, He went as an example to show us how to."
John 16:33.
Amen. It's a strange place I find myself in. Troubled by the miseries of the world and in my soul, and yet at peace because a good God is in charge.
This is my first time that I have sampled some of the material through this dialogue and I am intrigued. V33 “… in the cosmos you have suffering; but take heart - I have conquered the cosmos”
This statement along with what is further said as recorded in John 17 has big implications for me.
Why would the one who according to the same author earlier declare that the one who was present with God in the origin and all things came to be through him, and without him came to be not a single thing that has come to be… this one needed to conquer the very thing he brought about? I see that perhaps the Jesus we have been introduced to has more about him that we are not seeing? I do see more than what has been given to me through my tradition as a Christian.
Nicely put. Thanks.