Thanks Mark. Just a quick comment on the "Unchurched" phenomena. Being one of "those" people myself, I feel a real connection to those seeking a true version of faith and share their frustration with not being able to find it in the established church today.
I find it annoying that the study blames people leaving churches based on modern lifestyles that just don't have time for church on Sundays. People will make time to do anything they regard as a priority or important in their lives no matter when or how often it occurs.
I think the "better churches" argument doesn't hold water either. I think maybe more honest churches where people are allowed to be honest about doubts and fears and are free to live outside the highly restrictive bubble environment that has become most church culture today would be a good start. I personally couldn't care less that churches are full of "selfish, prideful people" (is there any other type?), I just wish they'd have enough faith to not be terrified to show themselves and be honest about it.
Lastly, I have absolutely no problem with the "rules" laid down by Jesus (or my perennial inability to live up to them). The whole purpose of coming together in fellowship and worship is to stimulate one another to love and good works. I'm just sick and tired of all the false cultural markers that have been laid down on top of Jesus' commandments and dressed up by established churches to impersonate gospel truth.
No, I don't see me or any of my unchurched friends objecting to calendar conflicts, needing "better" churches, or having to submit to any series of rules.
What me and most of my friends are sick and tired of dealing with are meetings that are more important than people, congregants terrified of being themselves for fear of being rejected by their group, and fellowships that are more about toxic cultural movements than the Jesus we profess to worship.
Let's start by talking about those points and we might actually start getting somewhere...
Excellent comments, Nick. My fairly-large Presbyterian church is in a time of transition between pastors, and our wonderful interim is leading us through a journey of honest self-assessment. The church CAN be a bubble. And I do think habits have changed. Mark, please keep returning to this. Blessings!
Thanks Betsey. God bless you and your church in this time of transition. It can be a time of terror and wonderful opportunity. Pray God's blessings of peace and unity.
Thank you for the good resources in your "God in America" issue. I agree with most of it, but I jumped the track with your statement:
"Ah yes, we just need better churches. But of course; we’ve always needed better churches—even in the packed churches of the 1950s. Churches have always been full of selfish, prideful people, and their attempts at teaching and living out the gospel have always fallen short. "
While true, I think that is dismissive of some trends that are different now than in 1950's. There is a widespread and measurable loss of trust in leadership in America, which includes church leadership. Many evangelicals are fed up with churches based on the business model, and with leaders who follow the Hollywood model of image management. I don't think people object to Jesus' "rules" once they meet Him. People respond to real people who follow Jesus.
I didn't mean to be dismissive. It's interesting that in the 1950s, the mainline church was also caught up on church as a business model and image management. Evangelicals churches started to buy into it in the 70s. I've been glad to see more and more people rejecting all that, even if in the short term it means abandoning the church altogether. God will bring them back in his time.
Thanks Mark. Just a quick comment on the "Unchurched" phenomena. Being one of "those" people myself, I feel a real connection to those seeking a true version of faith and share their frustration with not being able to find it in the established church today.
I find it annoying that the study blames people leaving churches based on modern lifestyles that just don't have time for church on Sundays. People will make time to do anything they regard as a priority or important in their lives no matter when or how often it occurs.
I think the "better churches" argument doesn't hold water either. I think maybe more honest churches where people are allowed to be honest about doubts and fears and are free to live outside the highly restrictive bubble environment that has become most church culture today would be a good start. I personally couldn't care less that churches are full of "selfish, prideful people" (is there any other type?), I just wish they'd have enough faith to not be terrified to show themselves and be honest about it.
Lastly, I have absolutely no problem with the "rules" laid down by Jesus (or my perennial inability to live up to them). The whole purpose of coming together in fellowship and worship is to stimulate one another to love and good works. I'm just sick and tired of all the false cultural markers that have been laid down on top of Jesus' commandments and dressed up by established churches to impersonate gospel truth.
No, I don't see me or any of my unchurched friends objecting to calendar conflicts, needing "better" churches, or having to submit to any series of rules.
What me and most of my friends are sick and tired of dealing with are meetings that are more important than people, congregants terrified of being themselves for fear of being rejected by their group, and fellowships that are more about toxic cultural movements than the Jesus we profess to worship.
Let's start by talking about those points and we might actually start getting somewhere...
Well, you're leading by example--honesty. A heartfelt expression that I know others will resonate with. Thanks for sharing it.
Excellent comments, Nick. My fairly-large Presbyterian church is in a time of transition between pastors, and our wonderful interim is leading us through a journey of honest self-assessment. The church CAN be a bubble. And I do think habits have changed. Mark, please keep returning to this. Blessings!
Thanks Betsey. God bless you and your church in this time of transition. It can be a time of terror and wonderful opportunity. Pray God's blessings of peace and unity.
Thank you, mark. Always good to interact with you.
Hello Mark,
Thank you for the good resources in your "God in America" issue. I agree with most of it, but I jumped the track with your statement:
"Ah yes, we just need better churches. But of course; we’ve always needed better churches—even in the packed churches of the 1950s. Churches have always been full of selfish, prideful people, and their attempts at teaching and living out the gospel have always fallen short. "
While true, I think that is dismissive of some trends that are different now than in 1950's. There is a widespread and measurable loss of trust in leadership in America, which includes church leadership. Many evangelicals are fed up with churches based on the business model, and with leaders who follow the Hollywood model of image management. I don't think people object to Jesus' "rules" once they meet Him. People respond to real people who follow Jesus.
I didn't mean to be dismissive. It's interesting that in the 1950s, the mainline church was also caught up on church as a business model and image management. Evangelicals churches started to buy into it in the 70s. I've been glad to see more and more people rejecting all that, even if in the short term it means abandoning the church altogether. God will bring them back in his time.
Very interesting and insightful!