Mark, I agree with most everything you say here, except that I note my disagreement with "apophatic theology." God is not "less than" the various characteristics we ascribe to him (based on numerous scripture passages), but "more than." In other words, it is perfectly correct to understand God as being precisely "love, etc." We just can't see the full scope of that. Similarly as to his "being," although we can't fully approach or experience him, at least in this lifetime, he is "fully present" everywhere--not "ethereally" in some fashion or another.
"When the soul is moved towards what is naturally lovely, it seems to me that this is the sort of passionate desire with which it is moved. Beginning with the loveliness it sees, it is drawn upwards to what is transcendent. The soul is forever inflaming its desire for what is hidden, by means of what it has already grasped. For this reason, the ardent lover of beauty understands what is seen as an image of what he desires, and yearns to be filled with the actual substance of the archetype.
"This is what underlies the bold and excessive desire of him who desires to see no longer 'through mirrors and reflections, but instead to enjoy beauty face to face [cf. 1 Cor 13,12]. The divine voice concedes what is demanded by actually refusing it, and in a few words displays the immeasurable depths of its ideas. On the one hand, the divine generosity grants the fulfilment of his desire; on the other hand, it promises no end to desire nor satiety of it."
Gregory of Nyssa, Life of Moses, sections 231-32
Your comments on God's elusive presence reminded me of this this quote from the Nyssan. Gregory seems to articulate the soul's ascent as a dance between apophatic and kataphatic theology, and he seems to emphasize the latter more than the former. But I find it liberating (both in my life and in my conceptions of God) that what can often feel like God's silence and hiddenness could actually be the drama of how infinite divine transcendence shares itself with puny finite humans. When he conceals himself from me, he is actually prolonging my ascent if I'm up for it. For me, my ascent is almost always quotidian, which is also why I resonated with your post. Thanks Mark!
Mark, The elusive experience has been mine. I am an analytical type that doesn't usually have spiritual emotional highs. Further, as I thought through some of the contemporary worship songs our church sings, I could see there was this desire for or expectation of experiencing God's presence as the end goal. However, I didn't feel I ever came very close to that and it didn't seem that the Bible emphasized that as a goal anyway. Through reading your article, and through the experience of others, I don't feel so alone. I've read the book about Mother Theresa's experience of not feeling God's presence at all--for years. It was like she was in the dark looking for God. I read other books too--by Os Guinness (God in the Dark), Laurie Short (Finding Faith in the Dark), Philip Yancey (Reaching for the Invisible God), Pete Greig (God on Mute), Brant Hansen (Blessed are the Misfits), and the writings of Pascal. I feel I am part of a larger group that is not abnormal, but normal! Maybe we aren't to feel totally satisifed with our relationship with God yet--because we were made for more--for heaven and the new heavens and earth. We ache for what will come one day, and that means our current experience is one that we will have to view in light of that. That's all the wisdom I can claim so far.
I (mostly) love the fact that you challenge me to think every week.
And a couple of those thoughts would be: First, talking about the lack of God in our institutions and the "Evangelical Industrial Complex" (Sky Jethani) brought to mind the term coined by Parker Palmer, "Functional Atheism" https://effectivechurchleaders.com/blog-1/2019/3/25/functional-atheism
Turns out it's something that's been with us from the beginning.
As for God being one who's difficult to know reminds me of a quote I know I'm going to get wrong from Ravi Zacharias, "God reveals enough of Himself to us to make faith possible, and hides enough of Himself to make it necessary."
Thank you, Mark. I've been struggling with the knowledge of God's omnipresence I have in my brain (and totally believe it is true-Ps. 139) with the fact that there are times I do not "feel" God with me. I do believe this tension is drawing me closer to Him, and hopefully, more atuned to hear 'the still, small voice" of His presence. And yes, in this tension, I have found Him to be much "more than" the attributes we ascribe to him. There are no words yet created that can completely capture the Wonder of the God who encourages us to call him Abba.
Mark, I agree with most everything you say here, except that I note my disagreement with "apophatic theology." God is not "less than" the various characteristics we ascribe to him (based on numerous scripture passages), but "more than." In other words, it is perfectly correct to understand God as being precisely "love, etc." We just can't see the full scope of that. Similarly as to his "being," although we can't fully approach or experience him, at least in this lifetime, he is "fully present" everywhere--not "ethereally" in some fashion or another.
Fair point. Thanks for making it.
"When the soul is moved towards what is naturally lovely, it seems to me that this is the sort of passionate desire with which it is moved. Beginning with the loveliness it sees, it is drawn upwards to what is transcendent. The soul is forever inflaming its desire for what is hidden, by means of what it has already grasped. For this reason, the ardent lover of beauty understands what is seen as an image of what he desires, and yearns to be filled with the actual substance of the archetype.
"This is what underlies the bold and excessive desire of him who desires to see no longer 'through mirrors and reflections, but instead to enjoy beauty face to face [cf. 1 Cor 13,12]. The divine voice concedes what is demanded by actually refusing it, and in a few words displays the immeasurable depths of its ideas. On the one hand, the divine generosity grants the fulfilment of his desire; on the other hand, it promises no end to desire nor satiety of it."
Gregory of Nyssa, Life of Moses, sections 231-32
Your comments on God's elusive presence reminded me of this this quote from the Nyssan. Gregory seems to articulate the soul's ascent as a dance between apophatic and kataphatic theology, and he seems to emphasize the latter more than the former. But I find it liberating (both in my life and in my conceptions of God) that what can often feel like God's silence and hiddenness could actually be the drama of how infinite divine transcendence shares itself with puny finite humans. When he conceals himself from me, he is actually prolonging my ascent if I'm up for it. For me, my ascent is almost always quotidian, which is also why I resonated with your post. Thanks Mark!
Great quote from G of N. Thanks, Adam.
Mark, The elusive experience has been mine. I am an analytical type that doesn't usually have spiritual emotional highs. Further, as I thought through some of the contemporary worship songs our church sings, I could see there was this desire for or expectation of experiencing God's presence as the end goal. However, I didn't feel I ever came very close to that and it didn't seem that the Bible emphasized that as a goal anyway. Through reading your article, and through the experience of others, I don't feel so alone. I've read the book about Mother Theresa's experience of not feeling God's presence at all--for years. It was like she was in the dark looking for God. I read other books too--by Os Guinness (God in the Dark), Laurie Short (Finding Faith in the Dark), Philip Yancey (Reaching for the Invisible God), Pete Greig (God on Mute), Brant Hansen (Blessed are the Misfits), and the writings of Pascal. I feel I am part of a larger group that is not abnormal, but normal! Maybe we aren't to feel totally satisifed with our relationship with God yet--because we were made for more--for heaven and the new heavens and earth. We ache for what will come one day, and that means our current experience is one that we will have to view in light of that. That's all the wisdom I can claim so far.
Nicely put.
I (mostly) love the fact that you challenge me to think every week.
And a couple of those thoughts would be: First, talking about the lack of God in our institutions and the "Evangelical Industrial Complex" (Sky Jethani) brought to mind the term coined by Parker Palmer, "Functional Atheism" https://effectivechurchleaders.com/blog-1/2019/3/25/functional-atheism
Turns out it's something that's been with us from the beginning.
As for God being one who's difficult to know reminds me of a quote I know I'm going to get wrong from Ravi Zacharias, "God reveals enough of Himself to us to make faith possible, and hides enough of Himself to make it necessary."
Thank you, Mark. I've been struggling with the knowledge of God's omnipresence I have in my brain (and totally believe it is true-Ps. 139) with the fact that there are times I do not "feel" God with me. I do believe this tension is drawing me closer to Him, and hopefully, more atuned to hear 'the still, small voice" of His presence. And yes, in this tension, I have found Him to be much "more than" the attributes we ascribe to him. There are no words yet created that can completely capture the Wonder of the God who encourages us to call him Abba.
Thank you for saying it like it is (at least, like it is for me).
Thanks for legitimizing the practice of being a thinking Christian as opposed to merely the consumer of others thoughts.
Business? Perhaps “Family Business” is a better image.
Wow, this article or "report" really spoke to me. Heh. I'll keep it short this time. Really appreciated this one.